Some goofy pastor in Florida is organizing a Koran (Quran?) burning event on September 11th. The spokesman for the State Department says it's "inflammatory" and could endanger our troops.
*
Angelina Jolie says it's wrong. She doesn't understand why anyone would burn someone else's sacred book. I struggle not to type 12 pages on why we have to ask her.
Angelina Jolie says it's wrong. She doesn't understand why anyone would burn someone else's sacred book. I struggle not to type 12 pages on why we have to ask her.
46 comments:
As a Christian, I am horrfied by this pastor's actions. This country was, in part, founded on the principle of religious freedom. The hatred and intolerance espoused by this "pastor" contradicts everything I believe. The gospel has been twisted by fanatics (like this idiot pastor) to support this kind of stupidity.
As a Christian, I too am sickened about this. I believe you all should worship who you want. Do we all have to agree with it, NO, but I believe we should respect one anothers beliefs.
~Palmetto Girl
What I'm sickened by is the fact the the people he's planning to insult in the deepest way do not believe in freedom of expression or freedom of religion and already used insensitivity like this pastor's to justify the inflicting of 9/11 in the first place. I pity the troops he's endangering.
I was going to start International Burn a Crazy Preacher Day, but I was informed that the toxic smoke might endanger insect life, so I had to shelve the idea.
they asked Angelina while she was on a UN ambassador trip to Pakistan
Well, crap, every single time some whacko preacher shows his ass he has to be from FL (my home state) and is usually a southern Baptist, the religion in which I grew up.
WTH is wrong with this guy? What would he be spewing if CNN started showing people in Iraq burning Bibles?
I'm a Christian -- this guy?, I don't think so.
I'm a Christian as well as a veteran. At first I thought that this guy was being foolish and shared all your feelings to one degree or another.
The more I think about it I realize that this will change nothing in the Muslim world. They are intolerant, insecure and violent to the core.
The message that has rung in madrasahs for decades is "kill Americans and Jews". Danny Pearl, Nick Berg, Theo Van Gogh, everyone who perished in NYC on 9/11 didn't burn a Qur'an, yet they fell to the murderous mantra that chimes at the core of their belief; To form an Islamic Caliphate. I remember all those goat boilers chanting "Allah akhbar!" after the planes hit the towers.
As misguided as the pastor's actions are, I applaud his standing up to a group of people who wish us no good will.
Jarhead
Germany tossed this nut out and he's ben denounced by the church he founded. This is all for attention and we're stupid enough to give it to him. Sure this guy is a nut, but I blame the media for making such a big deal out of it and giving him exactly what he wants.
Here's an article about this nuts (former hotel manager) past.
http://www.spiegel.de/international/world/0,1518,716409,00.html
I don't think burning religious books means anything. But, I think maybe that's just me and people like me. They can burn all the Pagan books they want, no skin off my nose. No one should have given this guy any attention.
I'm a little confused on the freedom bit sometimes. I mean yay freedom, right? But, Jar's right, they hate us and always will. Islam is evil..not all Muslims are evil, but, Islam is evil. ~Shrugs~ Like it matters what I think anyhow.
Peg, thanks fo rthat link. Read it, am not enlightened..lol. He wrote Islam Is of the Devil. Sigh. It's always the devil, huu?
My opinion;
Does he have a right to burn the Korans, yes.
Should he do so?; No.
To me, it is just a basic question of respect.
I am a VERY lapsed Catholic, and I believe in reincarnation, and many other things. But to me, it just seems to boil down to a question of respect.
I would never burn anyone's holy book because I don't believe in it, and I have no respect for the extremists.... they have a special place in hell, I hope.
I just am uncomfortable with the idea.
Beth in Seville
I love Lou Reed even more today than I did yesterday.
http://www.tmz.com/2010/09/08/susan-boyle-lou-reed-perfect-day-americas-got-talent-walk-off-show/
Jarhead took the words right out of my mouth. I'd say that a good chunk of my neighbours up here in Canada(I live in a suburb west of Toronto)are Muslim. This may not sound very PC so sorry in advance but I've never met a bunch of people so ignorant in my life. Even in a country as free as Canada is, these women are so oppressed it's disgusting. They are so unrepentant for 9/11 it's truly sickening. Most of them feel that the US had it coming (at least my neighbours) and the justifications they try to give-well I just have to walk away a lot of times. This is a free country and they are entitled to their own opinion. Just like that crazy ass pastor has his right to freedom of expression.
I say burn away...I'm just afraid of the repercussions for all the troops overseas.
Tammy
This guy looks like a mean old crab who hits small animals with sticks. He should mind his own business.
I love this guy. Only a religion as insecure as islam would care so deeply about the actions of a parish of 50 in some florida backwater. Both sides are insane, and the best way to deal with crazy is to shine some light on it. Rip the bandaid off--and let some fresh healing begin.
the above post was from me, sally--I am working from a laptop and the teeny keyboard just gets away from me sometimes...
Sally, I tend to agree with you. I don't give two shits if someone pisses on or burns the bible. That's not gonna change what I believe and how I express it, and I'm not gonna feel insulted by it, they can do what they please. I'm more insulted with what's going on within the religious group itself, that's a bigger fish to fry than some nobody trying to make a statement. In the end the bible it's just a friggin' book holding a compilation of stories with no more value than your average history book. After all, didn't Jesus say "And why do you look at the speck in your brother’s eye, but do not consider the plank in your own eye?"
Melissa--peace to you, and I get it. but biblical quotes don't mean much to people who don't accept that the bible is gospel. (gnostic)
On the same note, very few respected biblical scholars accept the verbage you quoted as being attributed to jesus of nazareth.
I believe that christianity, as far as mainstream organized religion is concerned, is more evolved from a human perspective than islam. I do not practice christianity or islam, but I do believe that no informed Xtion community would freak out to this extent about 50 unknown muslims burning 200 or so bibles in a small town somewhere in the middle east.
This uber PC American guilt has got to end--or we are doomed.
Jarhead,
I am in total agreement with you about this. I happened to discover Debbie's site about a month ago and I saw that someone posts there as Jarhead. Is that you?
Generally I'm not much for book burning, I figure people should read & make up their own minds, but in this case I'm in complete agreeance with Jarhead. I say break out the marshmallows & the weenies & get roasting! What was done to Theo & others is beyond horrific & as far as their bombing goes they can call it whatever they want, I call it cowardice & I always will.
Three days before the 9th anniversary of a Muslim act of war on the United States–a predominantly Christian country with clear separation of Church and State–and what is CNN doing?
1-Focusing on the pastor in Florida — with a congregation of 50 — who has gotten his message across without burning anything and has no intention of burning anything (and probably never did). He has already succeeded beyond his wildest dreams and CNN is airing proof.
2-Showing video of the ubiquitous group of able-bodied men in the Muslim world doing nothing other than burning the American flag, chanting Death to America!, and burning images of a Christian pastor – all the while urging Americans not to exercise their First Amendment rights so islamoterrorists aren’t incited.
Islamoterrorists do not need incitement and CNN is showing video proof of it.Of what significance would their burning of a US flag made in China be if CNN never aired it?
Who really owns CNN and why is there never any mention of CNN’s own role in perpetuating anti-American propaganda?
Nothing has happened (just like nobody can stop the 9-11 mosque) and the islamoterrorists are already at it.
Proving the pastor’s point in spades.
3-Explaining the 5 pillars of Islam – one of which is giving of alms.
Then why is the Islamic Republic of Pakistan in such distress? Why are infidels – the US – giving Pakistan so much aid when Muslims countries don’t even care?
Ali Veshi glosses over the “oath” which declares Islam to be the ONLY religion and all non-Muslims infidels. Islam itself designates itself as Muslim vs non-Muslims and that is not going to change no matter what non-Muslims do or say. And that is what non-propagandized people understand and why this alleged “outreach to the West” has no basis in reality.
The bridge would need to be built by those “moderate Muslims” who do not seem to exist – not a man who refuses to call HAMAS an islamoterrorist group and who uses two different titles for his book with different meanings depending on the translation.
That to commonsense folk is deception – not bridge building.
4-Hyping the man behind the mosque’s appearance on Larry King Live (no Larry) tonite.
So sorry about triple posts - this keyboard is acting up.
PART 2
No wonderments as to why the man has waited until 3 days before 9-11 anniversary to speak. And no one asking why the media hadn’t demanded he speak before he left for his tour of the ME on American taxpayer money.
5-Talking to Michael Cromartie from the Ethics Public Policy Center (also a “senior adviser to the Pew Forum on Religious and Public Life” – recall the recent is barry a Muslim poll they misrepresented) who leads with the earth-shattering enlightenment that “modern Islam in American has a PR problem”. Not that CNN and MSM isn’t doing their darndest. And then he says:
The problem for modern Islam is that you’ve got a small, very small percentage of Muslims who have become violent, and have used violence to advance their cause. And they get all the publicity.
Meanwhile, all the moderates, who are the largest percentage of Muslims everywhere, don’t get the attention they should.
And whose fault is it?
And if that were true – why are “moderate Muslims” letting the “non-moderates” hijack their faith? Why aren’t the “moderate Muslims” at the very least embarrassed that a very small amount of people can speak for more than a billion Muslims? And why aren’t they doing anything about it?
If it were true – “moderate Muslims” would be more outraged than non-Muslims and yet that is not the case. Not even close.
Where are the “moderate Muslims” in the US denouncing the burning of the American flag?
Where are the “moderate Muslims” in the US saying this is America and we are allowed to burn a Bible so why not a Koran?
Where are the “moderate Muslims” in the US denouncing Islamic (Shariah) law?
And if there are close to a billion “moderate Muslims” who are not islamoterrorists, and do not believe in Shariah law, then why does it still exist?
Words do not match actions. Now or throughout history.
If the overwhelming majority of Muslims are “peaceful-loving” people and Islam is a “peaceful” religion — why is there so much hate and violence throughout the Muslim world perpetrated in the name of Islam against non-Muslims?
Why has the Islamic Republic of Afghanistan never moved passed the Stone Age?
Why are little girls still being mutilated and still being sold to pedophiles in the name of Islam?
Why are women still being treated like reproductive chattel innocent women still being stoned to death in the name of Islam?
Because a billion “moderate Muslims” can’t stop the “very small percentage of Muslims” who are islamoterrorists?
This turnip doesn’t buy it. And why should any non-Muslim believe “moderate” Islam exists when there is absolutely no evidence of it?
Hi Nancy B,
I don't post anywhere else other than here and another exercise/military blog that a group of us belong to. It must be another Jarhead. What is Debbie's site?.
I agree with you. Moderate Muslims are silent out of fear.
Jarhead
The 10 international medical aid workers listed below were murdered without provocation in Nuristan Province, Afghanistan, on August 5, 2010, without a single Koran being burned.
Dr Tom Little, 61, Delmar, NY, optometrist
Dr Thomas Grams, 51, Durango, CO, dentist
Dr Karen Woo, 36, UK, surgeon, engaged to be married
Dan Terry, 63, WI, getting aid from org to those in need
Cheryl Beckett, 32, Knoxville TN, nutritional gardening
Glen Lapp, 35, Lancaster, PA, nurse
Brian Carderelli, 25, Harrisonburg, VA, videographer
Daniela Beyer, 35, Chemnitz, Germany, translator
Mahram Ali, 50, Wardak province, security
Jawed, 24, Panjshir province, cook
The lone survivor – the Afghan driver – was spared because he quoted the Koran.
2008: 4 International Rescue Committee workers were murdered by islamoterrorists outside of Kabul. Also not involving Korans.
2009: Ft Hood mass murder by a Muslim in the name of Islam was not preceded by burning Korans and was attributed to workplace stress.
2009: The attempted Christmas Day bombing (the date coincidence of course) was not provoked by burning Korans.
2010: The attempted mass murder of anonymous people in Times Square was not provoked by burning Korans.
2001: Mass murder of close to 3000 people by Muslims in the name of Islam without a single Koran being burned.
On and on.
Evil begets evil. There is no need for incitement. There is need only to find justification for the act. And saying that anything anyone in the US does or doesn’t do will prevent or provoke what hate-filled islamoterrorists do is giving them that justification. Worse, it is giving them power. It is showing them that their burning of the American flag (which no one in the media has a problem with) and yelling Death to America! works (even though no one has actually done anything) and that the American media is more than willing to push the “islamophobia” propaganda for them.
The pastor has the right to do whatever crazy thing he wants within the law on his property. Just like the 9-11 mosquites have a right to do whatever they want.
The real issue: Why is the media pushing the man’s propaganda at this very moment? And why aren’t they telling the Muslim world the full truth about him, starting with the fact that he speaks for only 50 people in a nation of over 300M and has been talking anti-Islam for years.
So why is world media bothering with him?
And who is really causing the outrage in the Muslim world: the pastor or the media?
Imam Rauf said last night on Larry King that if the Mosque (Cultural center) is moved, it will enrage the radicals to attack. He also said that he would re-consider naming the big investors.
Jarhead
NancyB, the murder of Dr Karen Woo and her group caused such a flame in me, I couldn't even post about it. I spent a day clicking to find out who she really was and what she was doing there. I can't forget her young face and the lies told.
Jar, that sounds like a threat to me. It's not even veiled.
There is no such thing as a moderate muslim.
Sally, hi again!
Biblical quotes don't mean a lot to me either. They are overused to justify people's actions. Then of course, it's the 'devil's' fault (rofl). I was actually making a point about the "bigger fish to fry" within my own religion, nothing more, but I know you got that! I've been lapsed for years, and I'm actually on the verge of leaving altogether, that's how insulted I am. Organized religion has proved to be borderline evil as far as I'm concerned.
Nancy-
Yes, WHY conveniently focus on this man's actions now? He sure doesn't speak for me!
DD-
Yes I agree that's a straight up threat.
The more I read about it, the more pissed off I get. We can't move the mosque or they've threatened more violence. Some goofball pastor who only has a flock of 50 can't threaten to burn their book or they'll kill Americans. I'm in "Oh, fuck you all" mode.
Because it was the Council of Nicea that decided the content of the bible, and because the sources are all individually self-vetted and just relate a story about a good dude that lived 2000 years ago; I have a hard time taking Biblical text literally. Great book and probably inspired by a celestial being, but man made nonetheless.
Mohammed came along 500 years after Jesus and the Jews and set up shop after having a dream in which an angel dictated the Quo'ran to him. Just like Brigham Young did and set up shop amongst like-minded folks and used religion to get their way. What a great scam.
I take the best of my faith and understand that it is what sustained me through difficult times. The most often heard phrase in a combat zone is "God bless you". And I also witnessed the worst part of religion where children are indoctrinated and taught to hate and kill for God.
Jarhead
as a former JW- I can this about them. They believe they are here to BE persecuted and take it as compliment. Because to them, it shows what they are doing is being like Christ and being persecuted for it. If someone was burning Watchtowers (and they probably have) I know this, all the JW's would do is...nothing. Just shrug and say, "Oh well, another one". It's not a big deal to someone that feels they are doing right, to be persecuted. But honestly, I don't know whats wrong with the air in the middle east. But those ppl just don't think like normal ppl do. I always say its just the hot climate that makes them crazy. because they ARE indeed crazy. Remember the women in the streets doing that tongue thing after 9-11? They were overjoyed. Those ppl are just not right. It's always been like that in that part of the world. It's in their genes or something, trained from birth to disregard life, even if & esp their own, in the name of Allah. No conscience. Scary as shit people!!
rox
Wasn't the Council of Nicea invented by that Emperor guy, Constantine? He was like, newly reformed Christian. I should go look up and read about this so I know what the fuck I'm talking about. But, wasn't he a former Pagan?
Rox, I used to actually read the Awake and Watchtower back when they left it for free. I don't know anyone else who ever read it. Now they want a buck for it. Pfft.
Yes Pat. He was baptized on his deathbed. It was the only way he had of holding the Empire together. Nice motivation.
Jarhead
This has been very interesting reading. I can't tell you how saddened I am by my country's bending over backward to be PC.
As long as I have been a nurse (over 32 years now) many babies that had any Asian ancestry had bluish/grayish large spots (that look like bruises) on their buttocks. Any text will tell you they are called Mongolian spots. It's just a normal variation, and you just note it on the first physical assessment, and move on. A day ago, I was informed that you can no longer refer to them as Mongolian spots because the child isn't Mongolian, and it isn't PC, so now we have to spend time describing the spots, size, color, etc. It was never a negative thing, just something you noted, so that others following you would be aware, and not think the baby had been battered. Now we have to spend extra time and effort to attempt to appease I don't even know who.
Meissa, maybe it wouldn't bother you if someone took a dump on a Bible, but it would bother me. I'll bet that if I took whatever you hold most dear, and abused it, you would care.
I agree with Jarhead, and Sally, and I am amazed at the intelligent, and obviously well-informed posts that NancyB has left here.
The truth is, we are bending over backward in an attempt to be PC for people who have no respect for PC or for us in general. Muslims have no tolerance for us and have no intention to "play fair". They will watch for our weaknesses, and bring us to our knees in any way they can, and will not rest until everyone of us kneels in a mosque praising Allah.
I don't know if I really care that he is burning qurans ... for craps sake weren't bibles the number one source for fires at one time?
I don't think islam is evil, i don't think muslims are evil, some are but I don't think its fair to generalize. Islam like every other religion is flawed, there really is none "better' than the other. I think the problem is that there are more ignorant zealots and radicals in Islam than any other religion (at this point in history). When you have them and a bunch of stupid little men and women who don't even know their own religion and will jump at any opportunity to fight for a false cause ... that is when you have the problem.
Sure he has the right to burn qurans ... but just for shits and giggles is it asking too much for him to stop and think ... maybe wonder what the repercussions this will have on troops abroad?
Aren't they already doing enough for you? Do we really need more dead because of some asshole who is too stupid to see past his hairy nose??
Christina, call me insensitive and cold hearted (actually very far from it, I'm a poor sap), but I wouldn't lose any sleep if you did anything like that to anything of mine that I 'cared' about. A thing is just a thing, I'm not emotionally attached to objects. I may say 'aw damn' quickly followed by an 'oh well' and move on. I value more what I have in my mind and my soul than anything physical, and that's what I consider my own freedom. That's where I hold my dearest thoughts, ideas, love and memories where no one can get to them. It's intangible, and no one can change it but me. That's what's important to me.
Jarhead -
Debbie is Debbie Schlussel. I found her blog by accident when she wrote a post that was dissing Kate Gosselin. I read some of her posts and liked that even though she is strongly conservative that she can't stand the folks at FOX. She doesn't seem to hold any regard for any of the main stream media. I found her site interesting and she posts stuff that is never covered in the MSM. I don't always agree with her but who cares!
Here is what is posted on her blog in the section About Debbie:
DEBBIE SCHLUSSEL:
Conservative political commentator, radio talk show host, columnist, and attorney
Schlussel’s unique expertise on radical Islam/Islamic terrorism and a host of other issues make her a popular speaker and television and radio news talk show guest, both nationally & internationally. (Her online fan club is the Internet’s second largest for a political personality–behind only Ann Coulter.) She is a University of Michigan graduate and holds both Law and MBA degrees from the University of Wisconsin.
As both an attorney and a frequent New York Post and Jerusalem Post columnist, Schlussel’s writings/commentary on radical Islam and her legal actions against radical Islamic parties have gotten a great deal of attention — and results. Columns she’s written in the New York Post and appearances she’s made on “O’Reilly Factor”:
* caused FBI Director Robert Mueller to revoke an award to an American citizen who was a Popular Front for the Liberation of Palestine terrorist and was involved with a group with Al-Qaeda and Hamas ties (October 2003);
* caused Caribou Coffee to have its worst financial quarter ever, when Schlussel exposed the coffee chains radical Islamic ownership and leadership of Sheikh Yusuf Al-Qaradawi (a supporter of homicide bombings), and caused Starbucks to have its best quarter, when Schlussel exposed the radical Muslim boycott of the Jewish-led chain (June/July 2002). Caribou Coffee’s then-CEO, Don Dempsey, credited Schlussel with driving down sales and profits at his national coffee chain by calling him to the mat on Qaradawi, and her work on this issue was cited in Newsweek and Business Forward magazines;
* exposed Detroit’s U.S. Attorney (the Justice Department’s chief official in the heart of Islamic America), his secret dealings with Hamas money-launderers and terrorists the U.S. government had fought to deport (November 2003), and his efforts to overturn a guilty verdict against members of Detroit’s Al-Qaeda sleeper cell and set them free (December 2003); and
* exposed billionaire hip-hop mogul Russell Simmons and his Hip-Hop Summit Action Network’s political/voter registration efforts on behalf of not only Louis Farrakhan and the Nation of Islam, but also radical Palestinian and anti-Semitic, anti-Israel activists and groups.
In 2002, radical Muslim University of Michigan Regent Candidate, Ismael Ahmed, credited Schlussel for his election defeat–when she exposed his tax-funded Arab organization’s financial and moral support of Al-Qaeda, Hezbollah and Hamas terrorists.
In 1998, Schlussel went undercover, dressed as a religious Muslim woman, to the Islamic Center of America, North America’s largest mosque, and reported, in The Detroit News on its support for terrorism, and anti-American, anti-Semitic hate. She was interviewed and quoted by Rolling Stone about the mosque and its radical imam, Hassan Qazwini, who is frequently consulted by President Bush and was invited to his Crawford, Texas ranch. Qazwini was embarrassed by the radical speakers and anti-Semitic hate he fostered in his mosque, and refused to address it in newspaper interviews. Schlussel was even attacked for her work on terrorism by movie critic Roger Ebert in a 2005 syndicated movie review.
Part 2
Schlussel, who speaks Hebrew, Arabic, French, and Russian, works closely with several Federal law enforcement agencies, consulting on fighting the domestic War on Terrorism, and has provided them with much useful information. She has gone undercover, infiltrating many Muslim organizations in the Detroit area (the heart of Islamic America), exposing their radical nature and support for terrorism. Schlussel continues to represent a very valuable Muslim confidential informant to several federal government agencies, who has been responsible for putting hundreds with terrorism connections behind bars. She also represented several whistleblowers who exposed terrorist operations now under investigation.
Schlussel was also the first journalist/columnist to expose Indicted Islamic Jihad frontman, Sami Al-Arian’s visits to the Bush White House and photos with President Bush, as well as his campaign contributions to prominent U.S. Congressmen, including House International Relations Chairman Henry Hyde. Al-Arian blamed Schlussel (because of her series of columns on Al-Arian in 2001) and FOX News Channel’s Bill O’Reilly (on whose show Schlussel appeared, in October 2001, regarding Al-Arian) for his dismissal from the University of South Florida.
As an attorney, Schlussel represented University of Michigan students in a lawsuit against the University when it hosted Al-Arian as a speaker at a radical conference (a conference urging divestment from Israel) on campus, exposing him and other radical speakers, and putting them and their supporters on campus on the defensive.
Wow Nancy. Thanks for that info. She sounds like an interesting person to read about.
Thanks again.
Jarhead
"Why are “moderate Muslims” letting the “non-moderates” hijack their faith"
"And if there are close to a billion “moderate Muslims” who are not islamoterrorists, and do not believe in Shariah law, then why does it still exist?"
Wow...so true.
NancyB - Thank you for everything you wrote and Jarhead has said as much many times. It was, for me, thought provoking, disturbing and so well said.
re: counsel of Nicea
It was convened by Constantine to define what the followers of Christ's Church believe as they were at odds about who Christ and/or God was. What the Nicean Creed decided, 300 years after Christ died, was that the doctrine of the Trinity and the affirmation of Christ as a deity would become a Christian teaching. They had nothing to do with determining bible content. The word "trinity" does not occur in the bible manuscripts we have at our disposal and is in fact not taught in bible translations adhering to available manuscripts. Neither Christ nor his apostles taught it.
The Counsel did not invent the concept of the trinity. The Nicean Creed simply incorporated the teaching into the Christian faith from already existing non-christian beliefs.
Hi Frimmy,
Getting chilly up North?.
Eastern, Greek and Roman Catholic churches differ slightly in content if merely by the fact that a different apostle preached in that area of the world. Constantine and the council could not have decided on The Trinity because it had been established by Jesus in his time.
But Saints like Isaiah the Solitary (one of my favorites)- never made it into the Roman Church. Better luck next time I guess.
Through his teachings I understood a little more about having the faith to believe there is a plan for everyone. Though Milton wrote in "Paradise Lost" how man is not meant to know everything because of it's grand design.
This was fun.
Jarhead
jarhead, I would like to see your reseach on this. and i do not mean empirical or faith-based research--I mean critical analysis:
''Constantine and the council could not have decided on The Trinity because it had been established by Jesus in his time.''
REALLY?
Sally, I'm completely dumbfounded by that comment also.
And no, it's not that chilly, September is typically our warmest month. I'd like to get more than 7 tomatoes this year though. It's not looking good at this point.
Post a Comment